Episode 36 with guest, Jillian Abby

[00:00:00] Podcast Intro: Welcome to the Gay Podcast for Everyone, a podcast where my LGBTQ+ community and our allies can come together in conversation and keep building stronger ones together. Whether you're in the LGBTQ+ fam or you're an ally, welcome. This is the Gay Podcast for Everyone.

[00:00:21] Jillian Abby (intro clip): And now we were an LGBTQ family. And that was a hard shift. I find that a lot of people, and I had to overcome that own kind of internalized homophobia or heterosexist bias that I too was okay with everyone else around me being gay. I just couldn't be gay. And I worked to have any other label attached to me than gay.

[00:00:46] Like, I'll be an accountant. I'll be a massage therapist. I'll be, like, I will do anything else out there. Just don't make this be the missing piece of me that hurts so much, that feels so empty. Like, I don't want to feel the, fill the emptiness with queerness. And that's why I was so lucky and grateful to write the book and share the story, because for so long, I never thought my most perfect life would be the one that included my queerness in it.

[00:01:17] And so to see perfect and queer together was so healing for me with the story. 

[00:01:24] Angela/ Intro: Hi, friends, my name is Angela Briones and I want to welcome you back to another episode of the Gay Podcast for Everyone. And thank you so much for joining me. Now before we get started, I want to ask you to please subscribe to the podcast. And to please leave a review on Apple podcast and Spotify, they're super quick to do. And it really helps me get the podcast out to more people who will hopefully get some value out of the stories we're sharing here. All right. So today's episode is with writer and author Jillian Abby. She wrote a fabulous memoir called Perfectly Queer: Facing Big Fears, Living Hard Truths and Loving Myself Fully Out of the Closet.

[00:02:01] And Jillian's story, which she shares in her book, is her coming out story. What's different about it is that she came out later in life, after a 19 year marriage and having two children. And as you can imagine, that was not an easy process.

[00:02:15] As I was reading the book, I stopped right in the middle to ask her to be on this podcast because I kept thinking about how the book wasn't just for the LGBTQ+ community. I mean, yes, the title is Perfectly Queer but the story at its essence is one that I think anyone can identify with. Plus, as an ally, you'll just learn so much.

[00:02:37] from her experience. Now, without giving anything away, I think my favorite chapter was when she shared the fact that her mom was now the parent of an LGBTQ+person and how that not only changed their beliefs, but also shifted the dynamic of their conversations. And I've talked a lot about that particular topic on this podcast, and that's exactly what this podcast is rooted in. So Jillian's story was something that I definitely wanted to share on this podcast.

[00:03:03] It's another reason why this book isn't just for the LGBTQ+ community, but also for parents and allies.

[00:03:10] Now I don't want to give too much away, but I hope that this chat with Jillian inspires you to grab the book ASAP and share it with others. This is my conversation with Jillian Abby

[00:03:21] Angela: I should say we've been talking a lot about happy accidents.

[00:03:24] Jillian Abby: Yeah,

[00:03:25] Angela: so I have a question for you, Jill.

[00:03:28] Jillian Abby: sure.

[00:03:28] Angela: after reading your book, 

[00:03:30] like, the first thing I thought of was, I feel like this book is not just for queer people.

[00:03:36] I feel like it's also for our parents. And I don't know if that was intentional on your part. Or if you've even thought about that? Maybe I'm the first person to bring it up. I don't know. Maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm the hundredth. But was that intentional 

[00:03:50] Jillian Abby: I love you for 

[00:03:50] saying that 

[00:03:51] that.

[00:03:51] Angela: Or is it a happy accident? Really?

[00:03:53] Jillian Abby: a little bit of both. I honestly started writing my story with no intention of putting it out there as a book. It was therapy.

[00:04:00] Angela: Hmm.

[00:04:01] Jillian Abby: me to process what I was going through. And so there were a lot of things that I just wish my family members knew or that my friends knew. And I didn't necessarily feel like I always had the courage in person to say those words out loud. Or, you know, it's also just kind of weird to sit down with someone and say, do you remember that one time when I was 17 years old and you said, so

[00:04:25] Right.

[00:04:25] 

[00:04:25] Jillian Abby: My story 

[00:04:26] was a way that I could reflect back on my life. Share things that were happening. And I just, I guess I really just wanted to be seen by my family because I felt like when I came out, there were a lot of people who were like, Oh, she's 38 years old, midlife crisis. Oh, she's bored in her marriage, whatever. There were so many reasons why people assumed I was coming out. And I wanted them to know that this went back years, if not decades, like there was so much more to it. It was not just opening the closet door. And yeah, I'm glad you said that because I really do hope that more people read it. And I've actually started giving the disclaimer on my book. Like if you don't have to be a murderer to read murder mysteries, you do not have to be to read this book because we all, whether we're, if we're not part of the LGBTQ+ community, we are. We have somebody in our lives who is, we know somebody who is.

[00:05:25] And 

[00:05:25] Angela: Yeah.

[00:05:26] Jillian Abby: I really do hope the allies read it. And I hope the not yet allies. I hope people who are just curious or don't understand. Will pick up the book and that maybe it will give them a different perspective, not change their mind, but at least understand where some queer people are coming from in their process, because there's a

[00:05:45] Angela: Right.

[00:05:46] Jillian Abby: lot of false narratives out there about what queerness is and why people are coming out. And I see those stories perpetuated. Well, here's the truth. my truth, at least.

[00:05:56] Angela: Yeah. I hope they do too. Cause it really is so enlightening- enlightening because when I read it, I was kind of thinking I was going to read you know, something kind of like a reflection of what my coming out was like, right? And to a large degree, I really did. I don't want to give anything away 

[00:06:13] by the way, but in the very beginning of your book, you do talk about, you know, there were the, like these moments in your life that kind of like, well, these moments that were like little pieces that you just took note of. And that's what I'm trying to say.

(Breadcrumbs)

[00:06:35] Perfect. And like you mentioned, I was raised in a not homophobic household. That's what you said

[00:06:42] Jillian Abby: yep.

[00:06:42] Angela: And then at one point, you talked about your mom saying, I wrote this down because it was just so great that she didn't want a gay child because it added more obstacles and hardships in life.

[00:06:52] Jillian Abby: yeah.

[00:06:53] Angela: you know, I was reflecting on my childhood thinking, there were little moments that like you said in your book were meaningless at the time, right? But you take note of them and then of course they resurface when we get older and then especially when we're coming out to ourselves You're like, you know what?

[00:07:10] I think I remember that moment that is coming up to the surface 

[00:07:14] and I thought that was just super interesting because you and I don't have the same coming out story, but in a certain degree we do. I mean, you had extra layers to your story because you came out later in life, which I want to ask you about that term coming out later in life.

[00:07:31] There are a lot of people who come out later in life, right? You can come out at 90,

[00:07:35] Jillian Abby: Right.

[00:07:35] Angela: you know, we've heard of that.

[00:07:37] Jillian Abby: Love..

[00:07:37] Angela: But does coming out later in life also mean like encompass children and a marriage? Is that different than other people coming out? I mean, I'm truly asking this question because I don't know.

[00:07:51] Jillian Abby: yeah, I don't - I've always defined it as beyond the period of where we maybe would regularly or normally know who we are as a person.

[00:08:04] Angela: Okay. Okay.

[00:08:06] Jillian Abby: you know, I've met people who came out in their 20s and they're like, yeah, I came out late. And I'm

[00:08:11] Angela: Okay.

[00:08:12] Jillian Abby: and again, it's all relative because to me,

[00:08:13] Angela: Right. Yeah. You're like, really?

[00:08:16] Jillian Abby: I'm out of my twenties. and then I

[00:08:18] Angela: Right.

[00:08:18] Jillian Abby: came out in their sixties and they're like, oh, honey, sit down. Like you don't even know. And then I'll meet a couple that got married in their seventies and they just came out. And I'm like, you guys are amazing. It's a really strange term. And I find it's completely dependent on what your age is and when you came out, as far as whether you like it and adopt it or you don't. which is really all language. Like it's based on our personal 

[00:08:41] experience

[00:08:42] Angela: Right.

[00:08:42] Jillian Abby: As far as what we love and what we gravitate towards and what doesn't feel good to us. But for me, yeah, I’ve switched a little bit from late in life to just later in life.

[00:08:54] because I don't think I'm late. I don't feel late necessarily. It happened in the time that it had to happen. I would have been a different person if I came out in my early thirties or in my twenties, I would not have the life that I had now. So it happened when it needed to

[00:09:10] it was just later

[00:09:13] than Yeah.

[00:09:15] for other people.

[00:09:16] Angela: I love that nuance and that differentiation, you know, because I think if you say late in life for me, there is kind of a negative connotation a little bit and then say later it kind of opens it up to it happened when it needed to be like you just described, which that's so true.

[00:09:33] I love that. I love that a lot. In your book, you talked about the dynamic with your mom 

[00:09:41] You're a parent going on their own journey, which I have talked about on this podcast, like since episode one, and you said the same thing I did, which was like, I was reading your book and I was like flipping out as I'm reading the pages.

[00:09:53] I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is exactly what I've been saying. I have to talk to this person because I described it also as I was carrying a weight, you know, the secret that I was carrying felt like a weight. And then when I came out, I gave it to my mom, my dad. my dad was easier in the sense that I never really came out to him.

[00:10:11] My mom came out to him for me. So I always focus on my mom. Cause that was like the most critical relationship for me, you know, cause I knew that it was just going to be a really difficult conversation. 

[00:10:22] 

[00:10:22] Angela: Had been in the closet for at least 10 years.

[00:10:28] I mean, I was trying to do the timeline earlier

[00:10:31] and I was like, I think I was in the closet very long time. Um, and it wasn't until, you know, super late

[00:10:38] or later for me that we had that conversation. And I just appreciated that you also described, you know. The heaviness of it and realizing that your your mom was also having her own struggles, her own shame, you know, dealing with shame, things we deal with when we're coming out to ourselves.

[00:11:02] Did any of that surprise you though, at the time? Cause for me, I, I didn't realize it til it was hindsight and I was like, Oh wow, I should have been more empathetic. I totally didn't think about how it was going to affect her in that degree or that regard. Did that surprise you too?

[00:11:20] Jillian Abby: All of my nuggets of wisdom are from hindsight. There was no brilliance in the moment.

[00:11:25] Angela: Yeah.

[00:11:26] Jillian Abby: There are, I think that's part of why I wrote the book too, because I knew that someday someone else would probably go through the same process and maybe this story would help them have that perspective that I wish I had when I was in the moment.

[00:11:41] And 1 of those things

[00:11:42] Angela: Yeah.

[00:11:42] Jillian Abby: when we come out, it's obviously a huge impact on our identity and how people see us and how people perceive us and the stories they tell about us and how we exist in society. But it also affects the people that we're close to, whether they 

[00:11:59] want it or 

[00:12:00] Angela: Right.

[00:12:00] Jillian Abby: not. I think that's the hard part is I had control over when I came out, how I wanted to identify, how I wanted to present myself, my mom became the mother of a queer child.

[00:12:16] Angela: Mm hmm.

[00:12:17] Jillian Abby: Without her consent, let's just put it that way.

[00:12:19] Angela: Yeah. Right. Yes.

[00:12:21] Jillian Abby: the narrative out there still and again, the narrative, like I mentioned in the book, that she said, I'd never want a gay child, life would just be harder for them. And so, for her, by me coming out, all of a sudden it was like, Things are going to get harder. You've just cast something more difficult into all of our lives. And there was a lot more at play there. She was getting a lot more involved in her church community and it wasn't necessarily an affirming church community. So having to explain of like when people were asking her,

[00:12:55] Right. Sure.

[00:12:56] life, what's going on? suddenly felt like she was going into her own closet of not being able to share what she needed to say. And I found that. I've talked to more parents, particular parents who are part of religious community that have queer children that say, I don't know where to go. I don't have people in my community.

[00:13:15] I don't know who's safe. I don't know who I can talk to. And so their own process becomes more complicated. And sometimes they take it out on their child for making it more difficult for them because they don't have the resources yet or the language. To be able to work through what's kind of been sprung upon them. The other piece that too, I

[00:13:35] Angela: Yeah.

[00:13:36] Jillian Abby: this morning with a friend of mine, and she gave me permission to share this story. She said that she actually grew up in a very affirming household. Her brother was gay and so she said, when she was in 5th grade, she was unloading the dishwasher with her dad and she said. I hope one of my sisters is gay so that I can stand up for her in the future. And it was like

[00:13:57] Angela: Oh.

[00:13:58] Jillian Abby: super woman, like, I want to be a proud ally. And her dad said to her, well, what if you're gay? And she got offended by it. And she's like, that

[00:14:08] Angela: Oh.

[00:14:10] Jillian Abby: eye opening moment of, I was okay with other people being queer or being gay. I was not okay with that label being applied to me. And I think that's sometimes what happens to

[00:14:23] I reached a point personally for me where I felt fine coming out as gay, queer, lesbian, but my mom, although she always had friends that were part of the LGBTQ community, there was a distance. From

[00:14:39] Angela: Mm hmm.

[00:14:40] Jillian Abby: that identity. And now that distance had shortened considerably. And now we were an LGBTQ family. And that was a hard shift. I find that a lot of people

[00:14:51] and had to overcome that own kind of internalized homophobia or heterosexist bias

[00:14:57] I, too, was okay with everyone else around me being gay. I just couldn't be gay. And I

[00:15:04] Angela: Right.

[00:15:06] Jillian Abby: to have any other label attached to me than gay. Like

[00:15:10] Angela: Yeah.

[00:15:11] Jillian Abby: an accountant. I'll be a massage therapist. I'll be like, I will do anything else out there. Just don't make this be the missing piece of me that hurts so much, that feels so empty. Like, I don't want to fill the emptiness with queerness. And that's why I was so lucky and grateful to write the book and share the story because for so long, I never thought my most perfect life would be the one that included my queerness in it. And so to see perfect and queer together was so healing for me with the story.

[00:15:50] Angela: Yeah. Cause you mentioned that you felt like being queer was a flaw

[00:15:56] Jillian Abby: Yeah.

[00:15:56] Angela: which I thought was really interesting, you know, and how did you like work through that, though? You'd mentioned feeling empty. How did you work through all of that , and then get to a place where perfect and queer actually came together?

[00:16:11] Jillian Abby: Yeah. of my favorite tools, and I talk about it in the book is craniosacral therapy or CST, and it's a type of somato emotional body work. So it's body work, but it's very gentle touch that works. Not only in our physical bodies, but also our emotions, our memories that we hold. And so I feel like I had this knowing inside of me, and some people may know that as their shadow self.

[00:16:38] It's like the piece of us that we hide away, that we have a hard time addressing. I kind of always sensed that this queerness was a part of me. And also I was like, we're just going to pretend like that's not there. Let's try and do whatever else and see if it will get rid of that feeling. Because like you mentioned how being, in the closet can be so hard and can feel so heavy. And so it does - when you're hiding a piece of yourself, like that has a physical effect on you. And

[00:17:11] Angela: Yeah.

[00:17:11] Jillian Abby: I just hoped for so long that anything else. Could make that feeling go away besides addressing the truth. And so it was craniosacral therapy finally with an affirming therapist because there's 2 different sessions in the book that I talk about when I finally had 1 with an affirming therapist. It was the first time where I felt whole and integrated. And I think that's where things then just started coming together. Like things just started making sense. I started my own healing process of this isn't a flaw. Like there's nothing wrong with this. And actually my life is so much better. I am so much better.

[00:17:50] I'm a better mother. I'm a better friend. I'm a better coworker because of this piece. And because I'm allowing it to exist, but we have so many societal stories that we're told that it's really easy

[00:18:04] Angela: Yeah.

[00:18:04] Jillian Abby: to believe that these stories that queerness is something inherently bad or evil or chaotic or whatever, that that's the truth. And so it takes time to unwind that. And it was only by living it and seeing that like, no, this is really how it is. Like

[00:18:20] Angela: Yeah.

[00:18:21] Jillian Abby: the horror story that they said it would be. It's actually more amazing than I could've ever imagined. That's the truth. Now I'm like, yeah, let's go pride,

[00:18:30] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:31] Jillian Abby: say it out loud from the rooftops.

[00:18:33] Angela: Exactly. I mean, that does take time, but it's like you said, like, until you were willing to or able to accept your queerness. And then also, like you said, our parents are in this place where they're the parent of an LGBTQ child. We don't really see our own biases. And I always say, like, I am convinced that I don't know-

[00:18:57] I, well, let me put it this way. I truly don't know if unconditional love exists. until 

[00:19:02] Jillian Abby: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:02] Angela: it's tested. Because, we say oh, I have unconditional love for my child or my sibling or whoever, but sometimes I have heard, you know,

[00:19:12] Jillian Abby: this condition.

[00:19:13] Angela: I'm like, you know what?

[00:19:14] I have heard stories where, you know, you might have thought you had that unconditional love and then it's tested. And it's one of those things where It's okay to be gay until, or it's okay for everybody, like you said, everybody else to be gay, but maybe not for, for you, for my child, you know, whoever. I think that's just such an interesting thing.

[00:19:34] And I just, say that because like the story you told about your friend who was like, her dad said, what if it's you? And she was like, taken a back. Yeah, we don't really, I think we don't really know our own internalized biases. until they're tested, which is

[00:19:52] Jillian Abby: sure.

[00:19:52] Angela: a terrifying thing, to be honest.

[00:19:55] Jillian Abby: A friend, I had a college buddy reach out to me on social media after I came out and I was posting my blog and talking about the book coming out and he shot me a private message and he's like, I'm really surprised that you came out. I always thought you were kind of homophobic and I was taken aback that he would say that and then I thought about it for a bit and it's like well I was though. I mean, that's a big piece of what kept me from coming out if I have fear or I didn't have a bias about queer people then I would have had zero problem Coming out the second. I knew that like oh I'd like

[00:20:37] Angela: True.

[00:20:38] Jillian Abby: to date that girl or oh, I have these feelings towards women I must be gay. It's a hard thing because nobody wants to admit that they have any sort of homophobia or transphobia or any semitism or anything out, any biases that we have, any racism. But if we don't admit where our problems are, it's hard to grow from there too. And so I really had to like sit in the mud with my own homophobia. And say, I don't want to feel this way towards myself the rest of the community. And so I decided like, if you could get a PhD in gay, then that's what I was going to go for.

[00:21:17] And I was going to

[00:21:18] Angela: Yeah.

[00:21:19] Jillian Abby: everything that I had been taught about the queer community. And I wanted to like read history and read more about the civil rights movement and read more about the laws in different countries and ancient histories and their beliefs on gender identity and expression and just to realize that my view of what the LGBTQIA community was, was such a very narrow, modern U. S., white, middle class perspective. 

[00:21:48] Angela: I absolutely understand the internalized homophobia. I struggled with that unknowingly. Like I didn't even know it had a name for a long time until this podcast, there was an episode with, a guy named Chris Tompkins and he talked about it. And I was like, wait a minute, that's what I'm struggling with.

[00:22:06] And I didn't even know it until we had this conversation because I just had a lot of shame and stuff. And then I started realizing too, that. you know, my mom likely was struggling with the same fear that I was struggling with of what was life going to look like for me. When you talked about just now of like, trying to learn about the LGBTQ community, like, I'm a part of this community.

[00:22:28] I want to learn. Same thing for me. I feel like the more I learn about literally who I am, you know, I mean, it, internalizes pride and it kind of takes the place of the shame for me. And I love when you talked about really taking the time to learn. And for me, I don't know about you with relationship, that you're having with your mom and stuff, and with your kids, I wanted to ask you about this too, like you talked about being a mom and being a better mom, and I was curious.

[00:22:58] You know, we were talking about language earlier before we started actually recording, you know, I'm very mindful of the language that I use around my mom. I want to make sure, you know, I'll say if something says, when was that sign that was the other day? It was like men working. Right.

[00:23:15] Jillian Abby: Hmm.

[00:23:15] Angela: I'll do everything I can to be like, people working, you know, I'm just going to like, point out everything that's just, you know, not inclusive to the point to where, you know, she's like, Angela, please, you know, stop.

[00:23:27] But I just do it because like, I'm not only trying to tell myself, but I also want to tell her, you know, there's a, there's a different way to say something. There's a more inclusive way to say something. even to that very, minute degree, but I imagine for you, what is it like with your kids? Has it shaped and changed the way you have conversations with them?

[00:23:46] Jillian Abby: Absolutely has. I think there's a lot of things that we say as parents without really realizing the potential impact of it. I mean, back to when my daughter was in preschool and it was a little Christian preschool and at Christmas time they do their little play and she was cast as Mary and this other little boy is cast as Joseph and everyone was like, Oh, that's your boyfriend.

[00:24:09] That's your, you know, Oh, look, they're a little husband and their little baby. And it's like, that's. Okay, but it's weird. It's a little weird. Or it's weird in that, like, we're okay saying that, but the

[00:24:23] Angela: right.

[00:24:24] Jillian Abby: could not be attracted to that and could be attracted to anything else, like, why can't we open ourselves to that?

[00:24:34] And so it's been this weird place. And I'm here in Florida where they're so proud of their don't say gay law. And so my son

[00:24:42] Angela: Right.

[00:24:43] Jillian Abby: it's been interesting for our family to navigate because obviously I'm an author and I have a son who's in fifth grade and for the great American teach in this year, I volunteered to come in and teach about being an author.

[00:24:54] Because when I was in fifth grade, that was my dream was to be an author. And I was like, how, I still have my book that I made in fifth grade.

[00:25:00] Angela: That's so cool.

[00:25:01] Jillian Abby: And so I was like how cool I can go in and show them my book that I made when I was their age and then show them that even though it took 30 years to get there my dream eventually came true and I can show them my new book and just talk about my journey of my love for writing and how I became an author. And I was told by the school that I was not allowed to bring my book in, that I was not allowed to say the title of my book, and that if they asked me what the book was about, I was supposed to say inclusion, which was, I mean, the irony there is like, but I'm not actually included. I am physically here,

[00:25:36] Angela: Right, exactly.

[00:25:38] Jillian Abby: me. This book is like the opposite of inclusion. So there's things like that that are a little bit of a challenge to navigate because my son knows what the book is about and so that that signaled to him that there's something not okay about what I did. And that that was not a piece that could necessarily be shared with his classmates or wasn't appropriate for some reason to share with his classmates. And we talked about it cause he said, it's hard that kids will come in and use gay or queer as a slur, but they can't even have the conversation around why, you know, it's just like shut down the conversation. They can't talk about why that's not okay. And here was an opportunity to use the word queer purely in a neutral sense.

[00:26:21] It's just the title of the book. I'm not teaching. not teaching how to be a lesbian here. But you know, like I'm more so aware now, too, of the messages that my kids get from all spaces. fortunately we have a lot of really good conversations and open conversations. And I never try to push them beyond their point of comfort either, because it's also their own identity and how they want to identify in their community and with their friends. And I will say what's really cool is for the most part with the younger kids, like almost a cool factor now to being part of the LGBTQ, like, Oh, I became the cool mom for some of these kids. I never thought that would happen, but you know, it's a challenge.

[00:27:08] Cause there's also definitely those messages and those groups also that make them feel like there's something not right about our family.

[00:27:18] Angela: Right. So with your mom, seeing you flourish as a mom, still on your own, in a new relationship and all that stuff. has she seen in ways that you're happier and, just, you know, kind of standing in yourself more? Does she feel more comfortable after of all the things she was worried about?

[00:27:39] Jillian Abby: Yeah, I think it took time.

[00:27:42] Angela: Yeah.

[00:27:43] Jillian Abby: I hope that comes across as hope or encouragement for other people out there who maybe came out to someone important in their lives and it didn't go well initially. She did have a lot of fears and Those were based on things she knew or things she heard from people in her own life. But now she was able to see me live my life and see how things were unfolding. And, you know, I shielded her from a handful of things. Like she didn't need to know all of my dating life. It was not all, uh, you know, I didn't find my person right away. But now she sees Jen and I together and we just got married.

[00:28:28] In December,

[00:28:29] Angela: did you?

[00:28:29] Jillian Abby: we did,

[00:28:30] Angela: Congratulations. That's awesome.

[00:28:32] Jillian Abby: made it official, and I think she sees. What our life is like, and it's so different from what she ever envisioned for me, but in a good way,

[00:28:44] Angela: Yeah.

[00:28:44] Jillian Abby: the best way possible.

[00:28:47] Angela: Yeah.

[00:28:47] Jillian Abby: the scenario that she didn't even have in her field of vision of how this could play out. And it was like, Oh, wow. Okay.

[00:28:55] Angela: Yeah.

[00:28:56] Jillian Abby: and even still, struggle with things like we will go in waves. There's, like I said, especially being here in Florida right now, when you're in an environment that is. Very polarized. when you're around the religious communities that are very polarized right now, she says she still feels like she walks a tightrope between her support for me and then so many communities that she's a part of. And it's taken me a long time to get to the place where I realized that like, that's not my thing to fix for her. So that's her thing to choose and, and work through. and that she needs to do in her own time. Like I can't speed up the process. I can't change the process. I just need to keep living my life in integrity and authentically and let her do the same in whatever way she needs to.

[00:29:51] But we try and keep our communication as open as possible and, you know, keep making progress forward.  

[00:29:59] Angela: I mean, even as, Gay adults. We're still, you know, their children and I don't know about you, but from listening to what you just said I struggle the same way, you know, I'm trying to live my life as authentically as I can and just doing my thing, but I know a lot of times that might be a struggle for my mom you just got married and that's That is so awesome.

[00:30:23] And you know, we're dabbling with the idea, you know, and it's, and it's mainly because I have such a struggle of even saying the words , to my mom and my dad, you know, and I'm 49 years old and I'm just like, I'm so fearful about saying these words because here I go, I feel like I'm coming out again.

[00:30:41] I'm worried about what their reaction's going to be. I'm 49 years old. to a large degree, I should just be like, this is what I'm doing. And. I hope you're a part of it,

[00:30:53] Jillian Abby: …were that easy, but yeah, it's

[00:30:55] Angela: right? But it's not,

[00:30:57] Jillian Abby: goes away. We're like,

[00:30:58] Angela: it doesn't,

[00:30:59] Jillian Abby: two. Yeah.

[00:31:01] Angela: it doesn't,

[00:31:02] Jillian Abby: in my room right now. I don't know. What do you need from me?

[00:31:05] Angela: it doesn't. And you know what, recently I, I, you mentioned your, you know, we talked about your kids a little while ago and just, you know, your label as a mom, I've run into a lot of people recently who, you know, they're queer people who have children who are also identifying as queer and it has brought out in them internalized homophobia that they did not realize that they had and it's so interesting to be a gay person or a queer person, however somebody identifies, which we need to talk about for sure. But, watching them be fearful for their children too, you know, everything you just described about Florida, I think as a parent, it's hard not to be.

[00:31:46] And then especially as a gay person or a queer person, we know the struggles that could come up, but mostly, I mean, I don't know about for you, but for me, I feel like I've been very fortunate not to have had too much around of that around me, to be honest.

[00:32:01] Jillian Abby: Yeah. That's awesome.

[00:32:03] Angela: I don't know.

[00:32:03] Jillian Abby: for

[00:32:04] Angela: Yeah.

[00:32:04] Jillian Abby: part, I feel like we have to, but you know, we've, we've also been to the events where there are the protesters with body cams and bull horns and.

[00:32:13] Angela: Oh, really?

[00:32:14] Jillian Abby: it's hard, and so I agree, like, the thought

[00:32:17] Angela: Yeah.

[00:32:18] Jillian Abby: of my kids being part of the LGBTQ, part of me would be like, okay, awesome, we can all go to Pride together, and like, we're all celebrating

[00:32:26] Angela: Right.

[00:32:27] Jillian Abby: communities, and whatever, I mean, we still do that anyways, but I don't really know how it would change if they came out or not.

[00:32:33] But there is a big part of me that's fearful, too, of like, I don't know. I also know the hard stuff that's out there, and I don't want you to face that. I mean, in some ways, like my mom's words coming back to bite me in the butt…

[00:32:46] Angela: Right.

[00:32:46] Jillian Abby: I never want a gay child cause life is just harder. it's not quite that for me, but it is, is that fear of just like, when will we get to the point in our society where people can just be kind to each other and we can just exist and, 

[00:33:04] Angela: Yeah.

[00:33:04] love 

[00:33:04] Jillian Abby: who who we love.. I don't know.

[00:33:07] Angela: Yeah. And well, and just making a little grace for what you just said, too. I don't see it as your mom's words coming back to bite you. I see it as like this kind of full circle moment where it just creates more empathy, you know, of, Oh, this might've been something that she felt and now I get it because I know outside of just this topic I've had those moments where you know I might not have realized how somebody felt about something until I was in that space and then I was like, oh I understand it now.

[00:33:41] I understand it differently than I did before, you know,

[00:33:45] Jillian Abby: Absolutely.

[00:33:46] Angela: But going back to the title of your book, Perfectly Queer. Why did you choose queer instead of lesbian or gay? I'm so curious. I love it.

[00:33:55] Jillian Abby: Well, so originally the book was titled A Chronic Case of Hetero which I thought was the most hilarious witty title possible, but it

[00:34:05] Angela: I like it.

[00:34:07] Jillian Abby: Yeah, I mean, I thought it was great. the same time, it was my wish that people outside of the LGBTQ community would read it. And so, I didn't want Chronic Case of Hetero to be any sort of, like, jab. you call queerness an illness and we're gonna turn the tables on this. Cause that really wasn't the intent. I just, I don't know.

[00:34:27] Angela: Right. Hmm.

[00:34:31] Jillian Abby: fortunatelyfor me, the publisher was like, we are not going to go with that title. We challenged you to come up with something new and we must have gone through probably 30 or 40 different titles before landing on Perfectly Queer. for me really having queer in the title, I liked it because this didn't have to necessarily be a story that only applied to lesbians. or only applied to bisexuals or only applied to gay men or whatever. Like we didn't have to niche it down so much. And so what I love about queerness is that it is an umbrella term and it's so encompassing. And then also even just the idea of, and friend, Dr. Tricia Peterson, who I mentioned in the book introduced me to this concept of queer theory, which has nothing to do with the LGBTQ. It's just about living, having to change up your life. Or the way that you exist in society so that you feel that you have a place, it's queering your life so that you find a 

[00:35:32] Angela: Hmm. 

[00:35:34] Jillian Abby: space to be. And so there's some people that don't fit. There's a lot of people who don't fit into the normal boxes of society and of the supposed to life that we're supposed to have.

[00:35:42] Angela: Hmm.

[00:35:43] Jillian Abby: to feel 

[00:35:45] good in life, they need to queer their life a bit. And so I even like the concept of like this book, I hope will queer our thinking a bit about , what does attraction really mean and what does identity really mean and what does change really mean?

[00:36:00] Like, is it okay if people change? And what if they changed back? I mean, there's so many people who said to me too, when I came out as gay, they're like, well, what if you change your mind? So, okay. so what, like, could we let that be a thing? Could we make space for that to be a thing?

[00:36:16] If that's a thing, like,

[00:36:17] Angela: Yeah.

[00:36:18] Jillian Abby: what is the problem? and then also the perfectly part is because am a hardcore recovering perfectionist. I talk about from very early in the book, the great lengths that I would go to, to try and maintain the facade of perfection in my life. And that's a whole kind of extra story to the book about these perfect ideals.

[00:36:45] And when we try to hold ourselves out as someone we're not, whether that person we're hiding is queer or it's any other, you know, or we're a mom that lives in sweatpants and has a million Cheetos into the, stuck into the cushions of our car seat or whatever, whatever part of ourselves we're trying to hide. So that people think we're one thing as opposed to who we really are. Like there's a weight to that. It's really hard to have that mask that you're always trying to maintain this image of who you are, if it doesn't match who you are inside. And so I kind of hope people would read the book. Even who weren't part of the queer community and could say, wow, I'm really hard on myself in this aspect.

[00:37:24] And maybe I don't have to be so hard. Like maybe I could eventually that part of myself or even love that part of myself. But yeah, so that is my very long answer for my very short title was supposed to be a chronic case of hetero.

[00:37:39] Angela: No, I love it because, you know, for me, I don't, how do I say this? I just don't use the word queer to identify because for me, they'd always had such a negative connotation. It always had just, you know, all that stuff. However, if somebody were to ask me if I were a part of the queer community, I would say yes.

[00:37:57] You know, it's not something that I would like naturally use

[00:38:00] Jillian Abby: Yeah.

[00:38:01] Angela: because of, the way I had had it presented to me in the past, I guess I should say. But it's not something that I reject either, but, I appreciate that you have, because I think that people outside of our LGBTQ community should absolutely read this.

[00:38:18] Allies should absolutely read this. I think you would find a lot of empathy for your person, you know, your loved one.

[00:38:25] Jillian Abby: Yeah.

[00:38:26] Angela: I think it's interesting because if I remember correctly, you and I have both shared on our social media, how going to a bookstore and being in front of a book, like in front of magazines or books that were gay related- it was a difficult process.

[00:38:43] Jillian Abby: Oh, yeah

[00:38:43] Angela: And that was so hard for me, you know, cause I was afraid somebody was going to see me or whatever. Now that you brought up recently on your social media, you were like, Hey, if you want to read this book and you know, you're a little nervous to do that, then put it on a Kindle, if you can, you know, or some, or something like that, where.

[00:39:00] You know, you can read it and you don't have to worry about somebody seeing you pick up this book that maybe you don't feel comfortable with yet, but by the end, you're going to feel comfortable with it. You know, you're going to find,

[00:39:11] you're going to find something.

[00:39:14] Jillian Abby: And I had to, kind of push a bit with the publisher, um, to do the ebook, but also the audio book because I knew that my book, with the word queer on the cover, with a rainbow color pattern, that I wouldn't have been caught dead carrying that book around, because I thought for sure that that would out me to everyone.

[00:39:38] Angela: Been there.

[00:39:40] Jillian Abby: And I'm, I'm sure that there are a lot of, I have to think there are other people who are in the same boat that again, it's like that proximity to queerness of I can be okay with queer as long as it's not attached to me. And

[00:39:53] Angela: Right.

[00:39:53] Jillian Abby: ways that they could access this material and these stories while still feeling safe and protected doing so

[00:40:01] Angela: Yes.

[00:40:02] Jillian Abby: And I'm so grateful to Hay House that they did that. And

[00:40:05] Angela: That's so awesome.

[00:40:06] Jillian Abby: my voice, you can hear it for hours as I read you the story.

[00:40:12] Angela: That's awesome.

[00:40:13] Jillian Abby: you

[00:40:13] Angela: I'm glad you did that too.

[00:40:15] Jillian Abby: this is cool. It was such a fun experience.

[00:40:17] Angela: Well, before we end, I'd love for you to tell me, you know, your mom's biggest fear was what was the future going to look like for you? You know, I'm sure that was your fear too, coming out of the closet. You know, I mean, you left, I think it was a 19 year marriage, right? 19 year marriage. You had two kids.

[00:40:33] That's a lot of unknown ahead. Having your mom have that fear for you too, I'm sure did not help. But what does life look like for you right now? we were talking about hope earlier. I don't even remember if we were talking about hope when we actually started recording or not, but we were talking about maybe there's a little bit of hope.

[00:40:51] What does it look like for you?

[00:40:53] Jillian Abby: I could not have pictured the life that I have now. Like just within the past few months, I got to attend Hay House's I Can Do It conference back in March, now almost a full year after my book has come out. And I actually got to go up on stage this year and share. That, you know, in 2020, when I saw the Hay House, I can do a conference pop up in my social media and add for it.

[00:41:18] And a friend asked me to go, I couldn't have afforded a seat in the auditorium. And here I am 2024 up on stage with the CEO, Reed Tracy, talking about my journey and having my books in their bookstore You know, and there's so many good things that have happened in our lives, not only just the book, but the way things have unfolded for us.

[00:41:44] Like I, I did end up meeting. My, my soul human, Jen, who I talk about, you know, she's in the final chapters of the book and it was just such a fortuitous or kind of serendipitous type of way that we met and how things worked out for us and we got married recently and, We're both really kind of stepping into our dream jobs.

[00:42:11] I mean, I write and story tell for myself and for others all the time

[00:42:15] Angela: Yeah.

[00:42:15] Jillian Abby: help support people in their storytelling journey. We were talking, uh, before we started recording about how neither of us know how to use commas and like but that doesn't have to be a barrier to being a writer. Like I don't have a degree in writing.

[00:42:28] I don't have any special training in writing. I just have a story. That was in some ways so ordinary, but that's what also makes it so relatable had to be told. And so by me sharing that, it has opened up so many doors for other people to also share themselves, and it's just like

[00:42:49] Angela: hmm.

[00:42:49] Jillian Abby: opportunity after opportunity after opportunity. And also, I've always had a fear of gardening, and now I'm like, I need a new project, because I hyper focus on certain things at a time, and so I was like, I'm going to hyper focus on learning how to grow plants, and so my yard is starting to look really cool because we've got mango trees and banana trees and I'm just,

[00:43:12] Angela: That's awesome.

[00:43:13] Jillian Abby: I love digging my hands in the dirt and finally like really being present in my life and in my body.

[00:43:19] And

[00:43:19] Angela: hmm.

[00:43:19] Jillian Abby: think this whole experience has just showed me that all of the things that I thought were impossible, I've made possible. And so it's like, what else can I do? And so there's a new book on the horizon. I'm working on writing my first screenplay…

[00:43:33] Angela: Nice.

[00:43:35] Jillian Abby: Life's just exciting. And I get to connect with people like you and like connect with community on

[00:43:41] Angela: Yeah.

[00:43:42] Jillian Abby: and connect with people through my writing on sub stack.

[00:43:44] And I just love it.

[00:43:47] Angela: And what's so crazy is all of this has happened by just telling your truth and living your truth and it all fell into alignment.

[00:43:57] Jillian Abby: It did.

[00:43:58] Angela: That's beautiful.

[00:43:59] Jillian Abby: wild. And that's why I think I'm so passionate about encouraging other people to do the same and also showing others how we can all make space for each other to do that. Because what I consider aligned, what's aligned for me may be totally different for someone else,

[00:44:15] Angela: Right.

[00:44:16] Jillian Abby: …love and support them in figuring out how to be the best, most aligned version of who they are? Because

[00:44:23] Angela: Yeah.

[00:44:24] Jillian Abby: show up best in this world.

[00:44:25] Angela: That's awesome. Well, I'm glad we're going to have more writing from you on the horizon, because I really loved your book. I'm giving it to a friend as part of her birthday gift and I'm telling so many people about it because I think it's fantastic. So thank you for sharing this space with me and this time with me.

[00:44:41] where can people find your book and find more about you and connect with you?

[00:44:45] Jillian Abby: Yeah. Sounds good. So I'm on Instagram at @jillianabbyauthor. Uh, you can also find me on TikTok at @hellojillianabby. Um, sub stack is called Reframe with Jillian Abby

[00:44:56] Angela: with Jillian Abby

[00:44:58] Yes.

[00:44:58] Jillian Abby: and.

[00:44:59] Angela: sub stack by the way. Yes. I love it.

[00:45:02] Jillian Abby: much fun writing it. That's where I let my sass out. and then, my book is available at most major book retailers around the world.

[00:45:11] so Amazon, Barnes and Noble, but you can also go to your independent bookstore and if they don't have it on the shelf, they can often order it for you. and it's also in the Queer Liberation Library, which is a free digital library available through the US library system as well, which

[00:45:27] Angela: That's really cool.

[00:45:29] Jillian Abby: Just started 

[00:45:29] Angela: Yeah.

[00:45:29] Jillian Abby: I was so stoked that they picked up my book. Yeah,

[00:45:32] Angela: That is awesome. Awesome. Well, congratulations. And thank you again for being here with me. Really appreciate it.

[00:45:39] Jillian Abby: It’s great.

[00:45:39] Hey everyone, thank you so much for joining me on today's podcast. If you liked today's episode, please share it with someone who will get value from it as well. And please head to Apple podcast to rate and review this podcast so that our LGBTQ+ community and friends can find it. Thanks again, everyone.

[00:45:57] Until next time.